Better Elected Islamists Than Dictators

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BetterElectedIslamistsWeb2

Thursday, October 4, 2012

The popular uprisings of the Arab Spring have left a leadership void that Islamist parties have been quick to fill.  A longtime supporter of former strongmen like Egypt’s Mubarak and Tunisia’s Ben Ali, the U.S. now faces the uncomfortable result of Arab democracy—the rise of Islamist parties that are less amenable to the West than their autocratic predecessors.  Will the Islamists, who once embraced violence, slowly liberalize as they face the difficulties of state leadership? Or will it mean the growth of anti-Americanism and radicalization in the region?  

  • reuel-marc-gerechtweb

    For

    Reuel Marc Gerecht

    Senior Fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies

  • brian-katsulis-web

    For

    Brian Katulis

    Senior Fellow at Center for American Progress

  • danielspipesweb

    Against

    Daniel Pipes

    President, Middle East Forum

  • zuhdi-jasserweb

    Against

    Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser

    Founder & President, American Islamic Forum for Democracy

  • Moderator Image

    MODERATOR

    John Donvan

    Author & Correspondent for ABC News

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reuel-marc-gerechtweb

For The Motion

Reuel Marc Gerecht

Senior Fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Reuel Marc Gerecht is a Senior Fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD), a non-partisan institution focusing on national security and foreign policy. He was a former Middle East Specialist at the CIA's Directorate of Operations. His book The Wave: Man, God, and the Ballot Box in the Middle East, was published by the Hoover Institution in 2011. Gerecht was a former Director of the Project for the New American Century’s Middle East Initiative and a former Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

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brian-katsulis-web

For The Motion

Brian Katulis

Senior Fellow at Center for American Progress

Brian Katulis is a Senior Fellow at American Progress, where his work focuses on U.S. national security policy in the Middle East and South Asia. Katulis has served as a consultant to numerous U.S. government agencies, private corporations, and nongovernmental organizations on projects in more than two dozen countries, including Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Egypt, and Colombia. From 1995 to 1998, he lived and worked in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and Egypt for the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs. He is co-author of The Prosperity Agenda, a book on U.S. national security. Katulis speaks Arabic.

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danielspipesweb

Against The Motion

Daniel Pipes

President, Middle East Forum

Daniel Pipes is one of the world’s foremost analysts on the Middle East and Islam. Pipes is President of the Middle East Forum, a nonprofit organization he founded in 1994 whose slogan is “Promoting American Interests.” He was previously the Director of the Foreign Policy Research Institute (FPRI) and editor of its journal, Orbis.  Pipes’ most recent book is Miniatures: Views of Islamic and Middle Eastern Politics (2003). Pipes served as an Adviser to Rudolph Giuliani’s 2008 presidential campaign.

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zuhdi-jasserweb

Against The Motion

Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser

Founder and President of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy

M. Zuhdi Jasser, M.D., is the Founder and President of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD). A devout Muslim, Dr. Jasser founded AIFD in the wake of the 9/11 attacks on the United States as an effort to provide an American Muslim voice advocating for the preservation of the founding principles of the United States Constitution, liberty and freedom, through the separation of mosque and state. Dr. Jasser earned his medical degree on a U.S. Navy scholarship at the Medical College of Wisconsin in 1992. He served 11 years as a medical officer in the U. S. Navy.

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Declared Winner: Against The Motion

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    21 comments

    • Comment Link Betul Cam Saturday, 01 December 2012 16:57 posted by Betul Cam

      I am for the motion (even though the team for the motion was not well prepared and did not articulate their thoughts well).

      I accept a fair and open election results to dictatorship any day!
      As a muslim liberal, it is my responsibility to be active in my community and promote liberal values to gain support and educate my people. It might take decades but at least i know i can change things (assuming elections will be clean).

      Any leader who stays in power via shady elections is no different than a dictator, indeed he/she is one!

    • Comment Link William Tuesday, 27 November 2012 17:29 posted by William

      I am against the motion:
      Great Debate and a brilliant panel...very intriguing to listen to. I am a simple man comparitively however I do have loads of common sense which points to the obvious...democracy doesn't work in the Middle East precisley because of who they will elect.

      It was President Bush's biggest error over there as he blundered by keeping our military in that theater too long for this concept. They hate the West and what we stand for...they will not immitate our government successfully.

      Last I heard they have not surrendered to us so how do you impose your government on a people who are not submissive. It worked in WW II but that was on the heals of unconditional surrender. These people will never surrender ....they want to die for their faith. An estimated 20 million Iranians died in the 10 year war against Iraq...many of them never carried a weapon into the battlefield. They just martyred themselves. It is a culture of death. How do you put a liberal leader in charge of this?

      Just look at modern Iran for example...they have an elected President, but he takes all his marching orders from the Clerics. There is plenty of evidence out there proving that Iran intends to Nuke Israel and the USA but we live in denial...have you not watched youtube videos on this subject? He repeatedly calls for the death/demise of Israel labling them the little Satan. Iran's President is advancing nuclear armament pledging to drive Israel into the sea. While we set around hoping for liberal leaders to emerge. Meanwhile a mushroom cloud is appearing on the horizan!

      Our democracy is folding but it worked because it was founded on principles that work. Our government was good because we consistently voted for good people with strong Biblical and moral values. We cannot expect other nations who have strong opposing views of theocratic influence to follow our principles. Especially nations that feel that we are the Great Satan.

      Islam wants to bring about an Apocalypse in order to re-establish their world domination. Have we forgotten about the Ottoman Empire which once ruled the earth via the sword? This will repeat itself eventually if we don't educate ourselves. Through sheer numbers the Muslims could take over the world again and many of them believe that this is the right time...

      A liberal Muslim is an oxymoron if you think about it...how can they be practicing their faith and be a true Muslim? Perhaps there might be some liberal (unpracticing) Muslims or new converts - but if they are practicing their faith they are following the later part of their Koran which supercedes the earlier more gentle part of the book. They are told in it to follow the later part of the Koran which tells them to overthrow the world and cause the world to submit by the sword. Look at Africa in Samalia and Rowanda...that is how practicing Muslim's treat their enemies.

      Look, the Christians follow their Messiah Jesus, but He modled forgiveness---from the cross..."Father forgive them for they know not what they do (or know who I am)"... what if however Jesus had ordered ten thousand Angels down from Heaven to slay everyone present or told his followers (Deciples who wrote the New Testiment) to avenge his death and kill all the unbelievers? How much different would this world be?

      But that didn't happen and in fact Jesus told us to love our enemies and forgive those who sin against us. Jesus obliterated racism (Good Samaritan parable), elevated women (Mary Magdalene, Martha & Mary sisters, and woman at the well), denounced violence (sermon on the mount "turn the other cheek"). On the contrary the Koran demotes women to property (multiple wives who must cover their hair and bodies), promotes barbarism (such as decapatation and slavery), & demands world domination.

      A theocracy will result in any democratic election. They are trying to get to heaven and that is why they are following this book so closely. They are trying to earn their salvation and it is a culture of death. Grace is not a term in their vocabulary. Their Koran advocates for the overthrow civilized governments and to rule the world again. Muslims believe that they are being punished with poverty (by Allah) for losing the world to the infidels and they are in the process of converting or killing the Jews and Christians.

      If we are hoping for a liberal minded Middle East we might as well call it quits now and hand over our country to them. The only liberals in the Middle East now are the Israelis and we are all lucky that they are liberal or the nukes would have fallen on all of their enemies causing the end of the world as we know it.

    • Comment Link Roger Monday, 22 October 2012 15:09 posted by Roger

      I thought it was a really interesting discussion. Definitely worth a listen or at least read the transcript for a few minutes.

      I think simply looking at the "results" does a disservice to the complexity of it all.

      I saw it as a discussion, not an argument. It was basically highlighting the immense difficulty that comes with the democratic process and how to avoid the pitfalls of the past.

    • Comment Link organizizer Saturday, 20 October 2012 17:18 posted by organizizer

      I'm a big fan of IQ2 - its well done, and its *so* needed.

      Donvan said he thought this was one of the better debates.

      I agree in one sense - that the topic was one of the most important ones IQ2 has taken on. kudos!

      I disagree, however, in the sense that i don't think it was well articulated, especially on the pro- side. One of the most important topics of our time did not receive the well-prepared, articulate, fact-based treatment that it merits.

      In light of the fact that our public discourse is so lacking in competent fact-based debate, I fervently hope that IQ2 will take this topic on again. (w/other debaters, a more nuanced question, or perhaps a special longer show w/expanded format..?)

    • Comment Link Wiil Waal Monday, 15 October 2012 03:23 posted by Wiil Waal

      I think the whole debate was about which one is good for the United States? All four debaters were arguing from the same benchmark! I feel sorry for the audience, they didn't get what they deserve, and I'm sure the don't even know that.

    • Comment Link ikram Sunday, 14 October 2012 15:28 posted by ikram

      There is so much ignorance.
      The truth is that there is no such thing as islamism and islamist. These two are made up words. The one who practice and believes in Islam is called a Muslim and the religion is called Islam. The things that are in accordance with the teachings of Islam are called Islamic not islamist.
      These ignorant people make up their own terms and then debate it.
      I feel sorry for the ordinary people who are kept in darkness while these people achieve their pity goals.

    • Comment Link Andy Lappin Wednesday, 10 October 2012 17:42 posted by Andy Lappin

      Against....stable dictators for the most part do not brainwash teenagers to become martyrs by committing acts of terror against civilian populations.

    • Comment Link Mike Wilkens Saturday, 06 October 2012 15:11 posted by Mike Wilkens

      Better Elected Islamists Than Dictators?
      What about the null set?
      How well was Germany served by Hitler? Russia by Stalin? Cambodia by Pol Pot? Cuba by Castro Inc.?
      This topic is like the social justice folk's question which made the round of colleges in the 1970s: The lifeboat with supplies and life vests for 4 occupants and 5 are in the boat. Who should be sacrificed for the better good?
      The moral answer: all should survive.
      To the debate question: neither is an option. Where's the debate?

      BTW, I use a screen reader to navigate screens as a blind computer user. I tried to listen to the (rerun of) the debate but could not engage the video. Many screen readers have a heck of a time with Java implementation (scripts are OK) and that's life on the Net.

    • Comment Link Daniel Scheinhaus Saturday, 06 October 2012 14:47 posted by Daniel Scheinhaus

      The motion is too absolutist. Islamist leaders who believe in and work toward strengthening democracy are obviously better than dictatorships or monarchies. Ideally, of course, best is the establishment of secular democracies. Another thing not included in the motion is whether they are better for their own people or better for the U.S. and/or Israel. If they wisely pursue their foreign and domestic policies, again, they are better for their own people. Obviously, they must avoid eliciting the ire of an often aggressive U.S. foreign policy to the point that they become economic victims or are even invaded. Possibly, a shrewd policy that enables them to become very valuable to China or Russia could be helpful to them. Of course, if the U.S. and Israel were to change their policies, that is, show a more positive attitude to establishing a separate, democratic Palestinian state, thus permitting the existence of two democratic, secular states living side by side, that would be helpful. I am convinced that currently, Israel is in danger of being taken over by its religious right, while its own population is kept irrationally terrified by its own Likud, led by Netanyahu.

    • Comment Link Karen Toman Saturday, 06 October 2012 10:18 posted by Karen Toman

      An excellent debate. My vote was against the motion after I heard all the arguments.

    • Comment Link Metamonkey Friday, 05 October 2012 17:35 posted by Metamonkey

      Best debate I've seen in years. Dr.Jasser was absolutely excellent

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