
Wednesday, October 12, 2011
A part of the Chicago Ideas Week, this debate is the first Intelligence Squared U.S. debate to be held live in Chicago. The herd mentality that assumes college is the only path to reaching one’s full potential is under fire. Student loan debt has surpassed credit card debt, unemployment for those with bachelor’s degrees is at an all-time high, and entrepreneurs like the founders of Facebook and Microsoft prove that extraordinary success is possible without it. But recent studies show that college is economically beneficial even to those whose jobs don’t require it. Is it still the best way to ensure social mobility, or is America’s love affair with higher education unjustified?

PayPal Co-founder, Tech Entrepreneur, Investor & Philanthropist

Author of AEI Article, Are too many people going to college?

President Emeritus, Northwestern University

Entrepreneur Turned Academic

Author and correspondent for ABC News.
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PayPal Co-founder, Tech Entrepreneur, Investor & Philanthropist
Known as the mentor to the PayPal mafia of entrepreneurs, Peter Thiel is a leading advocate of young people exploring alternatives to a college education. This year he launched the 20 Under 20 Thiel Fellowship, a two-year mentoring program that provides $100,000 in grants towards building the fellows’ businesses in biotech, technology, finance, education and more. In 2004, Thiel made the first outside investment in Facebook and now serves as a board member. Thiel currently serves as President of Clarium Capital Management LLC and Managing Partner of The Founders Fund, a Silicon Valley venture capital fund.
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Author of AEI Article, Are too many people going to college?
A political scientist, Charles Murray is the author of two of the most widely debated and influential social policy books, Losing Ground: American Social Policy 1950–1980 and, with the late Richard J. Herrnstein, The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life. In his most recent book, Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality, Murray challenges educational romanticism with his third truth: “too many people are going to college.”

Entrepreneur Turned Academic
Vivek Wadhwa is Director of Research at the Center for Entrepreneurship and Research Commercialization at Duke University and a Senior Research Associate for the Labor and Worklife Program at Harvard Law School. A respected pioneer for his groundbreaking research on the globalization of R&D and innovation, Wadhwa advises several start-ups, founded two software companies, and is a columnist for The Washington Post and Bloomberg BusinessWeek.
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Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
Reuel is an expert in Middle East affairs, since 9/11 he has focused on Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan, as well as on terrorism and intelligence. He is the author of numerous books on Iran and was with the CIA from 1985 to 1994.
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Editor of the influential Washington-based political magazine, the Weekly Standard
Kristol is widely recognized as one of the nation's leading political analysts and commentators, Kristol regularly appears on Fox News Sunday and on the Fox News Channel. He is an Op-Ed columnist for the New York Times and co-author of the bestseller, The War Over Iraq: America's Mission and Saddam's Tyranny (2003).
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This is especially important because so many people are
forced to work several jobs in this economy, just to make ends meet.
The basic accounting equation, in a way, "hides" capital, revenues, expenses and drawing in one basic accounting
element, the owner's equity. The discovery of prehistoric caves in Czechoslovakia (1937) and in some parts of Africa produced evidences of how cavemen devised their own system of recording economic transactions.
I agree that too many people are going to college. But, the reason why I say that is because too many of the people who do attend are either not prepared or capable of the level of work which is, or ought to be expected, or are doing it for the wrong reasons, i.e., not to learn, but to party or in the hopes of getting rich. We would be better served by focusing more on k-12 education and vocational training options. The pursuit of knowledge and a love of learning is virtuous and benefits the individual and society, but that attitude is developed at a much younger age than 18, and to think that, in general, people will suddenly "become interested" in learning because they enrolled in a college is a mistake. By age 18 it is usually too late. K-12 is when people need to develop a love of learning.
Why would anyone in their right mind put themselves in debt to sit through muck, which does not have one damn thing to do with what you do for a living?
I generally use an accelerated marketing program, administered by Holy Family College in Philadelphia. It should be streamlined to English 101, English 102 and basic math (without Algebra , trig and geometry since the student wants to learn marketing and not to build bridges). Replace all of the other muck with a 6-week course dealing in mortgages, commercial & residential properties, profit & loss statements and personal financial statements. Then teach a 6-week course about taxes (federal, state, local, capital gains, dividends, AMT, corporate etc). Then teach a 6-week course about business law and state and local regulations. Then teach a 6-week course about marketing.
All courses should be administered by businesses and not third party colleges. Additionally, the students should be actual employees and get paid for this schooling, which should only require about 24 weeks. A certificate of completion could be given, which could be honored by any business in all 50 states.
This would get hundreds of thousands of young men into the workforce before the age of 21.
"Richard Arum and Josipa Roksa, authors of "Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses" (2011), report on their analysis of more than 2,300 undergraduates at 24 institutions. Forty-five percent of these students demonstrated no significant improvement in a range of skills -- including critical thinking, complex reasoning and writing -- during their first two years of college."
"More than one-third of currently working college graduates are in jobs that do not require a degree, such as flight attendants, taxi drivers and salesmen. Was college attendance a wise use of these students' time and the resources of their parents and taxpayers?"
I strongly agree with the resolution. I am a chartered accountant with a master's degree. I know that in the last 10 years the CPA exam within many (if not all) states has been "dummied down" mainly becuase the students found it too difficult. Universities as well as certifying institutions also require members and membership dues. Just like universities are measured on retention and graduation, certification memberships are measured on the number of those who pass the certification and become lifelong members.
P.S. I am also an accounting professor (since 1985) and I've seen the stats go from 1 or 2 out of a class of 30+ who were not prepared to be in the class to 30+ not being prepared. I teach 3rd and 4th year students. I receive student comments such as: the text is too difficult to read, the problems are too complex, case studies are not real life. With a 4 year accounting degree students now can become an A/R clerk; this position used to be held by high school graduates. I also agree high school graduates would not be able to sit and perform a job for 8 hours a day. I feel sorry for the few who have great potential and where the classroom discussion is more remedial than inspiring. I have since become a mentor to graduates who need assistance transitioning to work.
PPS. one of my sons is a university graduate (professional engineer) and the other did not attend college or university. Both have found jobs and careers they are happy and reasonably successful in.
When watching the debate I strongly disagreed with those that felt that college isn’t necessary. Although college is expensive, this is just one negative to many positives of college. College students upon graduation many times are exposed to many opportunities and many times are guaranteed jobs. Also, a college graduate have higher chance of making more money while getting to meet new people. I feel that college is something that everyone should try to experience and that it is a great investment in one’s future.
Education is not knowledge. As Einstein put it
"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." - Albert Einstein
I completely agree. And I completely disagree with the "against" team specifically for 1 reason they imply that they would educate everybody and that everyone would be forced to make intelligent work/ things. Going to college does not teach you how to do your taxes, it does not teach you how to manage your credit cards, handle your finances, how to handle debt, how to find the right life partner, or friends. Infact most college students go to colleges for the wrong reasons (like where their friends are going). They start out in programs that think will make them more money and then realize that they are not good at it or go in programs that they aspire to and then realize there is no money in the field. I hardly think that is a $150,000 life lesson!! And yet when they start work that is if they find work in the field they desire they still end up paying accountants, APR Interests and bankrupcy lawyers that srew their life not just financially but emotionally. It all spirals down to
"Wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the life-long attempt to acquire it." - Albert Einstein
And todays students are far from the
Pursuit of Knowledge which = Curiosity = Exploration = Happines.
Wheras, Formal Education = Complacency = Scrambled = Miserably Defeated.
The only way to understand the above is to know what you value. If you value Happiness as Success the above makes sense. If you value money and stature to define Success you will disagree. Now lets face it If we have all engineers and architects but no farmers we'll have amazing machines and beautiful buildings but no food to eat! And that's what we are deliberately coaching just because we admire the outcome of some professions does not mean that's what a child must persue. If the child works as a garbage man and discovers how we can put to rest the issue of mass dumping into refueling it as energy I say such a child can put to shame a degree holder anytime. He will specialize in what interests him and he will know what the challenges are from the very bottom to the top. And that's the problem kids freshly out of college have little idea of what the REAL problems are at the bottom where the action lies that defines the business. They just wanna do their JOB and not understand the challenges at the field level. Because of that corporations endup with patching up their problems which not only costs them but also the ultimate consumer which inflates prices, which inflates the value of money which eventually benifits consumerism out of frustration and so the cycle continues of grinding the "Well Educated" in America!
Good points all around but I still fill that there are still to many kids that go to college for the wrong reason.
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